Crystals in Urine and high PH

[MaxiMomus]

I took Maxi to his yearly check up today. I took a urine sample because he has pee peed twice in the house and he has not done this since he was a puppy. The vet said that he had lots of crystals in his urine and the PH was really high, so she put him on ROYAL CANIN Veterinary Diet -Canine URINARY SO 13 and some antbiotics. The vet also said that he would have to be on a maintainence plan after we got rid of the crystals. If he does not respond to the new diet we need to have an xray to see if there are stones present. Is there something else that I can do for him and is there another food that I can feed him for now or is what he is on now a good choice? What about when we go to the maintenance phase. I know that this was discussed somewhere else, but I can not remember where. I also need to know how much to feed him, he is overwieght, the bag says to feed him 3.5 cups a day, he gets a cup of Innova large breed adult food now, and we have started walking about 4 miles in a park, 3 times a week (I was laid off at the end of May) and he has gained 3 pounds since he last saw the vet 7 months ago, he only gains does not lose. He also plays fetch several times a day. I need help and suggestions I am freaking out+UNSURE+

[disraeli ears]

My Andy has a problem with high PH in the urine. It is not chronic (so far) so our vet decided that she did not need to go on the special food.
For now, she just recommends that I make sure Andy drinks plenty of water.

Sorry I don't have anything else to add!

[MissGambler's+Mojo'sMommy]

I wish that I could help you, but I can't, just wanted to let you know that we are thinking of you, and hope that he feels better fast!!!

[taflar]

I took Maxi to his yearly check up today. I took a urine sample because he has pee peed twice in the house and he has not done this since he was a puppy. The vet said that he had lots of crystals in his urine and the PH was really high, so she put him on ROYAL CANIN Veterinary Diet -Canine URINARY SO 13 and some antbiotics. The vet also said that he would have to be on a maintainence plan after we got rid of the crystals. If he does not respond to the new diet we need to have an xray to see if there are stones present. Is there something else that I can do for him and is there another food that I can feed him for now or is what he is on now a good choice? What about when we go to the maintenance phase.

I would use the food suggested for now. IF there are no stones and the crystals clear up, you should be able to go back to his old food.

One of my corigs, Woody (now passed on), years ago had bladder stones. He had to have surgery for the stones and antibiotics for the crystals for awhile, but once he was cured, we went back to his old food. He lived to be 15 and he ate what everyone else here ate.

The one thing I did differently was to add vitamin c to his food and for quite a few years I added a cranberry capsule to his food.

I also need to know how much to feed him, he is overwieght, the bag says to feed him 3.5 cups a day, he gets a cup of Innova large breed adult food now,

What is the protein level and fat level in the new food? If it's considerbly lower than Innova then I'd feed about half of what the bag says and see how he does on that. 3.5 cups a day seems too much to me.

and he has gained 3 pounds since he last saw the vet 7 months ago, he only gains does not lose.

Then he is eating too much food. You need to cut back even more. Maybe try the "green bean" diet? That means you replace the kibble you're taking away with green beans so he feels full. You can use frozen ones (thawed or not, depends on your dog, might like frozen ones in the summer) or you can use canned ones. But if you use canned be sure to rinse them as your dog doesn't need the added salt.

Peggy

[MVons]

http://b-naturals.com/Dec2002.php

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/urolithiasis-in-dogs/page1.aspx

I'm not a fan of Royal Canin after they having the recall and denying any dog was sick from their food. My dog was on their Sensible Choice. Hopefully the websites above will give you some help. *****But they just reimbursed our Vet and pet replacement cost**** That says alot. I really loved Pepper on their adult food and this supply problem tainted my view. The food you were given I'm sure is fine because FDA has reviewed the food and would have done a notice to recall by now. The key is whether your dog likes the food and at least Peggy mentioned there are two other brands if not.

Merrie

[taflar]

http://b-naturals.com/Dec2002.php

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/urolithiasis-in-dogs/page1.aspx

I'm not a fan of Royal Canin after they having the recall and denying any dog was sick from their food. My dog was on their Sensible Choice. Hopefully the websites above will give you some help.

Well the other choices for perscription diets are Sciene Diet and Eukanuba.

Maybe you could ask what's in the perscription food that's different from the regular food. Maybe just switichin to a different type of Innova would work too.

Peggy

[darci]

I am no expert by any means but I will share what has worked for me.

I started looking for foods with low ash levels and found that Eagle pack fish formula and many flavors of Timberwolf ( ocean blue, dakota bison etc..) fit the bill.

I also add a little water to their dry kibble, about 1/4 - 1/3 of a cup.

I also tested our tap water and the ph was very high ( 8.0 ) so I started buying spring water in gallon size from the grocery ( 65 cents ).

Giving 1 cranberry capsule from the health food store daily.

Since changing these things we havent had any problems in about 9 - 10 months now.

As for being overweight, Darci is my little chunky butt. She eats Timberwolf and she eats 1/2 cup in am and 1/4 cup in pm. At first she thought I was starving her so I would add unsalted green beans ( 1/4 cup ) and that worked well for us. She went from 31 lbs down to 25 lbs.

Good luck to you and hope this helps.

[Dillydoodle]

sending lots of hugs to you and maximus... I know you must be so worried.. I was also going to suggest looking for foods that are low in ash. I am not sure about innova for dogs as far as ash content, but i know they tend to be quite high in fats . I can vouch for the timberwolf foods ( currently ocean blue and wild and natural, my boys have been on it a while ( we are also mixing in Fromm chicken a la veg for some variety) and they seem to do very well on it..
Sending healing vibes to maxiums
Emilie

[MaxiMomus]

Thanks for all the information, hugs and good thoughts. I do not understand the nutritional information for the Royal Canin food but here is the link to the food Maxi is on now.

http://www.royalcanin.us/documents/CanineUrinary.pdf

and for the food that he was on before

http://www.innovapet.com/products/default.asp?id=1260. If you feel that I should switch Maxi to another food after his crystals are gone please give me suggestions, I am open to all suggestions.

I am going to add Vitamin C and Cranberry Capsules to his food. Should I start them now or wait until he is crystal free and off his antibiotics? He always has fresh water. The PH of our water is 8.0 as of April 2007, should I switch him to bottled water?

[darci]

Yes I would change to bottled water, 8.0 is too high. I would also go ahead and start the cranberry.

I personally would change to a lower ash food, but you could always wait and see if the cranberry, vit c and bottled water do the trick.

Lots of luck..... Keep us posted on his progress.

[MVons]

The PH of our water is 8.0 as of April 2007, should I switch him to bottled water?Reverse osmosis water should be lower PH as it is the TDS (total disolved solids) can help to raise PH and reverse osmosis takes the TDS out. Our water is PH 7 with 113 TDS. After the reverse osmosis the PH is 6. So if you buy mineral water, you'll want to check it's PH.

Merrie

[MissGambler's+Mojo'sMommy]

Again, I really can't offer you a cure, but I would second (or third) the post to go to bottled water, I did go through this with a cat. I also remember being lectured to encourage urination, that going long periods of time without urinating does not help the problem at all. I hope you know that we are all here for you, whether we can help you or not, and I'm sending lots of good vibes your way!!!!

[corgimom]

Jodi,

I wish I could help you out in the dog area, but I am dealing with a cat that recently had the same issues as your Maxi.(I have a thread on that). He had the crystals in his urine and was put on the special Royal Canin Wet Feline food and after two weeks, his crystals were gone; but there were other issues after that. This special food, I am told is only intended to be fed for up to about 5 weeks, and something in it to help break up crystals. I was also told to try and increase his water intake because urine that it too concentrated increases the chances of crystals forming.


For maintenance it was brought up by my vet that that Royal Canin has a food for that, but I didn't want to feed that brand for maintenance and so I went with Felidae because it was lower ash than others (however, he won't eat it now, so I feed him his regular stuff)- I don't know if it is the same for their dog food(canidae) and that it is also low ash. Pick a few foods that you would be interested in and call or email the company and see what the ash content is; they will be happy to help you out.

I am also doing the bottled water as suggested by Cindy.

Good luck to you with Maxi and I hope his situation resolves itself; wish I could be more helpful to you.

[disraeli ears]

How do you test water PH? Is there somewhere convenient to buy test strips?

[mtoy]

How do you test water PH? Is there somewhere convenient to buy test strips?

Check in a pool supplies store, or even the toy department of Walmart or similar stores where they have pool supplies. There are strips and liquid test supplies, both are easy to use, just ignore the other things they test for.

[CorgiMum]

she put him on ROYAL CANIN Veterinary Diet -Canine URINARY SO 13 and some antbiotics. The vet also said that he would have to be on a maintainence plan after we got rid of the crystals.

Sorry, I am no help with crystals or PH, but I can tell you about our plan to keep the weight off of my two.

I know that Royal Canin in the US makes the same food that Montrose & Dylan eat here, Medi-Cal. They have been on the Fiber Diet for about 10 years now. First because Monty has alway had hard stoll problems, and secondly to keep their weight down.

Because we can't take the Med-Cal into the US with us when we travel I talked to the Royal Canine rep here and she said that they were the same product. Just to let you know how mine are doing on it, Monty weighs 25-26lb and eats 2/3c...measured... twice a day. Dylan weights 27-28lb and eats 3/4c....measured..... twice a day.

A rule of thumb our Vet told us it that a dog should not have more than 10% of their food allotment, of anything, added to it, treats veg, fruit, etc.


I've done from time to time as Peggy suggested with the green beans, with the canned pumpkin. After Dyaln's surgery his confinement period was 4 months so he had to have less food, and the Vet's post op instructions said to replace 1/3 of his dry food with the pumpkin.

Carrots, apples, pears, green beans, even an manderine section or two are their usual daily snacks. Medi-Cal makes diet cookies that they also have at night, there is probably the RC brand as well.

Good luck, and lots of healing vibes for your sweetie.

[CorgiMum]

There are strips and liquid test supplies, both are easy to use, just ignore the other things they test for.

I don't know if it is true or not, but our spa guy told us that the strips are not as accurate as the bottled test kits.

[mtoy]

I don't know if it is true or not, but our spa guy told us that the strips are not as accurate as the bottled test kits.

Yes, I forgot about that, it's true - thanks!

The little liquid tests are usually much cheaper, too.

[Jespah]

Hey Jodi!

Sounds like everyone has given you good advice on the crystals - the cranberry is great.

I switched Rupert to a salmon based natural kibble last summer - he will always fight his weight as he is a big guy. He was up to 45 pounds last summer and by just changing the dry food, he is now a svelt 34 pounds in less than a year. He gets the same amount of food, but it's formula makes him feel full so he is happy and not feeling deprived.

I hope Maximus is doing better.

Deb

[mtoy]

Hey Jodi!

I switched Rupert to a salmon based natural kibble last summer - he will always fight his weight as he is a big guy. He was up to 45 pounds last summer and by just changing the dry food, he is now a svelt 34 pounds in less than a year. He gets the same amount of food, but it's formula makes him feel full so he is happy and not feeling deprived.

Deb

Deb, what food is it? I'm always on the lookout for good foods. Millie needs to be kept on the thin side too for her back end to move. She tells us every day about how she's starving and we just don't give her enough.

[MaxiMomus]

Ok since Maxi has crystals in his urine and a high PH, I have a few questions for the future. By the way I had a complete meltdown yesterday about his health, but my family was very supportive and knew that I was sleep deprived from staying up almost all night researching food and articles on crystals in urine and Maxi vomiting all of his dinner last night pushed me over the edge, I am better today. Regarding the vomiting last night, my daughter called the vet and was told that we could give Maxi some Pepto Bismol, and that the antibiotic that he is on is very strong and probably caused the vomiting. I have decided that the amount of food that he is getting may also be a a factor, so I am going to split it into 3 meals. He is drinking allot of water, I understand that this is normal, am I correct.

On to the questions.

How much protein is too much and is too much a factor in Maxi condition recurring?
What is the high and low end of ash that a food should contain for Maxi when he is allowed if this happens to go back to regular food?
I found a cranberry capsule from the Vitamin store where we get our human vitamins that also contains C and E here is the link to the label http://www.vitaminworld.com/vf/labels/004360VW.pdf what are your thoughts on giving this to Maxi, or do you have some other suggestion?
Suggestions of good food to prevent this from recurring, I would prefer that he eat dry food, also need some treat suggestions.I also want to thank everyone for all your support.

[corgimom]

Jodi,

I am speaking from my cats experience, but the mention of protein was not brought up as being an issue with crystals(that may be different for dogs) I thought Cindy(Darci) had told me that with ash, it should be under 6.5% - and I think the magnesium level is important also. She recommended Felidae for me - Canidae for you
Felidae is 5.5% for Ash - I don't know what their ash content for dogs is.

Here is the thread with links to lots of pet food companies. you could send the ones you are interested in, an email or call them, and ask them about their food and ash content. I remember though that fish based foods, especially the Salmon had a higher ash percentage.

And I have been doing a lot of reading also on crystals and there are different views out there and some now say that ash content is not as important as they once thought in preventing crystals, that the main thing was getting the pet to drink more water to dilute the urine more.

http://cool2bcorgi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140

[Jespah]

It sounds like you are doing your research and getting good info Jodi. I think a good quality natural kibble should be fine. Most high quality dry food should be fine with their balance of protein and other ingredients. I am curious as to why you only want to feed dry food? He needs moisture in any form. I also have cat with crystal issues. I feed my cats and dogs a blend of 3/4 kibble, 1/4 wet Combo if wet food, pumpkin and yoghurt for the dogs) and for the cats I add water to the mix to make a slurry. This extra water helps them all with crystal devleopment.

I can understand your melt down - it's natural, you love him and want to make sure he is 100%. Big <<<HUGS>>>, he'll be fine.

Deb

[corgimom]

Jodi, just wondering, what antibiotic is Maxi taking?

[ZdogZ]

Jodi ~ Keeping you and Maxi in my thoughts. Nothing wrong with having a meltdown - we all worry about our babies. I wish I could help you, but all I've got is thoughts and prayers for you.

[MaxiMomus]

Deb,

I was not clear, I like dry kibble with pumpkin (he really likes the pumpkin) for moisture for him. I have been giving him about a teaspoon of pumpkin with his .5 cup of food twice a day before the crystals. I have not given him any pumpkin since the new food the vet put him on, she said that he should only eat the new food no extra stuff for now. He now is getting 1 cup of food three times a day with .25 cups of water.

Linda,

Maxi is on Cephalexin 500 mg every 12 hours

[Dillydoodle]

I tried to look up the ash content on the canidae and couldnt find it listed... however i did look up the timberwolf and they are low ash i believe all are under 6.5% however i know the lowest one is the wild and natural ( higher protein food) was 5%.

The extra water drinking can be caused by the antibiotic or by the change in food to all dry... If he is used to getting some of his liquids from the pumpkin or wet food, to go to all dry may make him drink more, so that sounds normal to me.. The upset tummy is often a side effect of the antibiotics, but the pepto should make his tummy settle a little ( Gus takes steriods and they upset his tummy so I give him 1/2 a pepcid AC along with his steriod and that really does help him a lot. )

As far as having a melt down, i totally understand ( had one of those a few days ago about Gus... and will have another one coming soon , i am sure! ) It is hard to see them not feeling well and wanting to "fix" them. sending Maxi healing vibes and hugs to you!

Emilie

[corgimom]

Maxi is on Cephalexin 500 mg every 12 hours

Did you get a print out of the medication and side effects from the vet? I looked it up and it does say nausea, vomiting and diarrhea can be common side effects.

My vet also told me that for upset tummy I can give 1/2 of a regular strength pepcid AC twice a day - regular strength is a 10 mg pill which you would cut in half(but always check with your vet) - but if the pepto is working, then that is good. Emilie what strength of pepcid AC do you give Gus?

[Dillydoodle]

I use the one that is marked regular strength- and at this point he only gets 1/2 of one along with his 1/2 a steriod pill which is every other morning... i was initially giving him a whole regular strength pepcid AC every single day along with his whole steriod that i used to have to give him every single day...

Emilie

[mtoy]

I tried to look up the ash content on the canidae and couldnt find it listed...

Emilie

I feed Canidae. I know I saw the ash content somewhere a few months back. It's low, but I don't know how low compared to others. I'm sure they'd tell you if you inquired.

[Fluffypants]

Oh Jodi, I don't know how I missed this thread until now, poor Maxi! I have no experience with this, but sounds like you have a lot of info to sift through anyway, so I'll just send some more hugs and healing vibes your way. I hope he feels better soon. You must be beside yourself with worry. +WUBCLUB+

[taflar]

I have decided that the amount of food that he is getting may also be a a factor, so I am going to split it into 3 meals. He is drinking allot of water, I understand that this is normal, am I correct.

How much are you feeding him? About how much water is he drinking? I can't see that drinking a lot would be bad, but could be an indication of something else too.

On to the questions.
[LIST=1]
How much protein is too much and is too much a factor in Maxi condition recurring?

I've not heard that protein had any connection with crystals or stones. Woody ate the regular Innova and did fine. He had the bladder stones at age 5 and none after that time. He was on regular dog food not a perscription diet for the rest of his life.

I found a cranberry capsule from the Vitamin store where we get our human vitamins that also contains C and E here is the link to the label http://www.vitaminworld.com/vf/labels/004360VW.pdf what are your thoughts on giving this to Maxi, or do you have some other suggestion?

Vitamins c and e are good for dogs. My dogs get them every day. I would go ahead and use the capsule you have.

Peggy

[taflar]

I am curious as to why you only want to feed dry food? He needs moisture in any form.

She said he's drinking a lot of water so he should be ok there.

Also if you want to you can add a bit of water to kibble. I give my guys some warm water on their kibble when I feed them. Not more than half the amount of kibble. (If one cup of kibble, one half cup of water or so. I don't measure it, but I don't make it soggy.)

Peggy

[darci]

True I dont worry about protien so much. The ash is more important for dogs prone to crystals. Like Linda said around 6.5 % is great and some of timberwolfs like Em said are even at 5%.

I also give canned food 3 or 4 times a week for dinner. They love innova evo 95 % rabbitt, and I even add a little warm water to their canned as well as dry.

[MaxiMomus]

I have been giving him .25 cup of water with his prescription food. I guess maybe I am noticing the amount of water he is drinking more now, because the vet and some articles I have read said to push the water so that he will pee pee more to flush his system. No more vomiting since the first dose of antibiotics and we have seperated his food per day to 3 meals instead of 2. He seems to be doing fine but as I said he showed no signs that anything was wrong, the only indication was the 2 accidents in the house. Thanks for all the well wishes, and hugs, I really appreciate them and I know Maxi does too.

Should I be feeding him the amount of prescription food per his weight or the weight I want him to be. The vet said per his weight, but that is a lot of calories, much more than he was getting with his regular food. I know he needs to lose weight, but I do not want to do him wrong by not giving him that correct amount of food to dissolve the crystals. If you are curious look back in this thread for the food he is on now, I beleive that it is Royal Canin SO.

[darci]

feed him by the weight you want him to be.

[corgimom]

Jodi

I agree with Cindy, I would feed him the amount based on the weight you want him to be. I know with my cat I was given that Royal Canin special food also to disolve his crystals, but was not told that I had to feed him a certain "quantity of the special food" daily to disolve the crystals. You know you could always call Royal Canin(their phone number is on the bag) and ask them if that would give you more reassurance.:SMILE:

[Dillydoodle]

I will third that... I would feed based on the weight you want maxi to be.. The amounts they say to feed on a food bag is usually way way too much anyway..

Emilie

[taflar]

Should I be feeding him the amount of prescription food per his weight or the weight I want him to be.

IMO, the weight you want him to be. IMO, I'd feed about half of what you said the bag said to feed, meaning not more than 1 1/2 cups.

Peggy

[MaxiMomus]

Thanks that is what I thought, about the amount to feed him but wanted to be sure since this is the first time he has been on sprecial food. I have to take a urine sample in on Tuesday for testing, keep your paws crossed that there is an improvement.

[ZdogZ]

Keeping paws crossed for Maxi!

[dcole]

Jodi

I hope that Maxi - and you! - are feeling better today.+WUBCLUB+

[Fluffypants]

How's he doing Jodi? We are keeping our paws crossed!

[MaxiMomus]

Maxi is doing better only one accidents in the house (this was my fault slept in to late, he never wakes me to go outside and is so stealthy that I never hear him get off the bed) and no more vomiting, and he is eating well, although he never shows signs that anything is wrong, he is such a tough boy. He acts like his normal self, running, always wanting to play fetch, growling and barking at Malya (the wolf), wrestling with Muggie (the Chihuahua) and Medjai (the American Bulldog). He drinking lots of water and I take him out a lot, it is kinda like having a big puppy.

I talked to the vet this morning and I have to take the urine sample in on the 26th two weeks not tomorrow as in a previous post, good thing I called. When I go to the vet on the 26th, I am going to ask for the lab results from his first urine sample, I am interested to see the amounts and percentages

I am doing better no more meltdowns so far, I still am worried about him,but trying to keep busy so I have least time to dwell on this, because I know that I am doing all that I can for him. My husband is traveling since 16th but should be home tomorrow, and my daughter and son-in-law have been visiting his family in Silverdale WA since the 14th and will be home the 20th. So I have been the lone keeper of the animals, other than Maxi they are listed above. :EEK:

Time to take Maxi out, thank again for all the nice messages and information.

[Jespah]

Glad to hear that Maximus is doing well - sounds like he`s having a good old time. We`re here if you need us! Thanks for keeping us posted!!

Deb

[ZdogZ]

Glad to hear that Maxi is doing better. I noticed the M Theme going with your names! :BIGGRIN"

[Fluffypants]

Good news Jodi! Hope it's nothing but smooth sailing from here on out.

[corgimom]

Jodi,


We haven't heard from you and I was wondering how Maxi is - since you said you had to take him in on the 26th for a re-check. Were the crystals all gone?

[MaxiMomus]

Max is doing well, took him for is Lepto booster today, asked about the crystals since the vet never called me back. Maybe not the vets fault, maybe the tech never followed through on the call back. He still has some crystals in his urine, but no infection, so I am going to leave him on the prescription food for now, and have him recheck near the end of the bag and then decided about what food to feed him from there depending on the urine results. Sorry It took me so long to tell you how he is doing, but was recently diagnosed with Diabetes so have been trying to learn how to handle this, it is very time consuming. As for now all is well.

Thanks so much for all the support, suggestions and information that you all have given me and Maxi.