Sam's Cruciate

[manymuddypaws]

So today I took Sam to yet another vet (lucky #3)-
one who specializes in Orthopedic Surgeries. And after a few manipulations the diagnosis was that Sam has a blown Cruciate. Ugh. I am pretty upset, mad, sad, and weirdly enough relieved.
Right now I am mostly mad, at my original vet who didn't diagnose it, and the second vet who still didn't diagnose it. At the second PT who agreedwith the vet (the first PT thought that it was) and I am mad at myself most of all. It is my job to protect and care for my dogs. Sam has been limping for almost 6 months. That is a long time to be in pain. I can't believe that it took me this long to say "maybe I should get ANOTHER opinion"
Ugh.

(I posted more in depth to my blog) not everyone wants to know just how pi**ed off I am. :NAH:

So Sam is booked for Surgery on the 13 of September. I will keep you all posted of course.

[MissGambler's+Mojo'sMommy]

POOR THING!!!! What all are they going to be doing in his surgery, and what will his recovery be like? I'm assuming that he will be taking it easy for quite some time, it sounds just awful. I hate knowing mine feel bad, and take any of their pain personally. I guess I have very high levels of empathy, sounds like you do as well. I'm already sending quick healing vibes, but keep us posted on this and certainly remind us when he goes in for surgery.

[ZdogZ]

Sending healing and good vibes for Sam. Please keep us updated and give Sam some lovin' from usl

[CorgiMum]

{{{{{{Sam}}}}}}

Amanda, I hope that your boy will make a fast recovery from his surgery. Is he having the "Traditional" surgery? That is what Dylan had last May.

I'm sorry that you have had to seek out more than one Vet to get Sam's problem correctly diagnosed, we were very lucky as our Vet's office is actually a full hospital and that 2 of the Drs there are orthopedic surgeons. Monty & Dylan's own being a specialist, which we did not know previously.

Unfortunately your situation is not all that unusual as I found out when I joined the Ortho Dog Group. The people there were a great help and support for us during that time and a wealth of information. I hope that they will be for you too. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodogs/

At the begining I had no idea there was more than one type of surgery, the site has pictures and very detailed information as to what will happen to Sam in the operating room, and details of the extreme importance of the recovery procedure.

I followed that to the letter, and on the very day that Dylan was finally, after 4 months allowed to be off leash in the yard, I saw him play on the carpet, and catch a toenail on his surgery leg, setting his recovery back the point where the Vets thought that he would need to have the operation redone. He spent those four months in either of three ways. In his over sized kennel, in the play yard in the kitchen, or on a leash on my arm. It has taken almost a complete year for him to heal. That too I found out can be the case with some dogs.

I assume your boy is on a strict 'rest' period now awaiting surgery? Is the surgeon close by you, or will travel be involved?

I have a picture of Dylan's wee little 'chicken' leg after surgery, I will post it for you. If you are anything like me, you want to know exactly what you two are facing in the months ahead, to 'try' and prepare yourself.

{{{{Amanda}}}}

[Merlincorgi]

Oh Amanda! **hugs**

How exceedingly frustrating that it is has taken so long to diagnose, but it has to be a relief to finally know for sure and have a plan to help stop his pain finally. I have watched the surgery in RL before but it has been a long time and I couldn't begin to recount it. All I can say then is best of wishes for a speedy and set-back free recovery! We'll be thinking of you and Sam on the 13th!

[Bobbie]

Merlin's first one was mis-diagnosed, too, but when he was still limping a month later my own vet (first was on vacation) diagnosed it correctly. He said that when they are in a lot of pain and muscles are tensed it can be hard to diagnose as they look for laxity in the joint. Or it can have a partial tear and that is also hard to diagnose (humans get MRI's, which can show ligaments much better than Xrays.)

He was two when he blew that one, then at five did the other one. That time he ripped out the repair and did have to have the surgery redone. Hes almost ten now and thanks to his lack of cooperative crate rest, a bit gimpy, but still doing (low-level) agility, with the full approval of his vet.

Ask about types of surgery and costs. A lot of surgeons do TPLO, but we consulted a specialist who said he doesn't do it routinely on dogs smaller than 35 pounds, and research shows other, less expensive procedures can be equally effective.

Crate rest after surgery is an absolute must. (Merlin threw fits, and when I took him out to potty on the leash, jumped up and down and in circles, so his repair is less than perfect- if I had it to do again I'd have kept him drugged for at least the first few weeks.)

[CorgiMum]

I agree 100% Bobby, confinement and rest make all the difference in the world to the success of the recovery.

Dylan's Traditional surgery was $900CAD, and never, not once have we ever been charged a fee again for either of the Vet's to check his leg. Not when they scheduled and appt, or when I asked to have him looked at. Not even this year. And, if the surgery had needed to be redone, we were told that there would not be a charge. ( The Vet has also been to our home and I know that he was satisfied that I and that I had followed all of the very detailed recovery instructions. By the hour the first few days.)

I know that the recovery from the TPLO is much quicker, but I was glad that he was not having it as it is so invasive. I understand that it is much more expensive as well.

I've posted Dylan's surgery pics in a separate thread, so those of you that do not want to view them will not have to see them by surprise.

[Jespah]

Amanda - I am so sorry to hear about Sam. But at the same time relieved, as now it is diagnosed ,you and he can move on. We will all be here to support you and as you've seen there are some folks here with some great advice. The best being to keep him rested as much as possible afterwards - I think that part is so much harder on the owner than the dog. You want him happy, but healthy is more important.

((((HUGS))))

Deb

[MissGambler's+Mojo'sMommy]

I would assume that the dog's temperment would have a lot to do with the healing. A calm dog may handle the confinement much easier(like Miss Gambler), but I would hate to have to go through something like this with a wild child like Mojo. She had to be sedated just because of being spayed(I agree with you Bobbie, I would sedate Mojo for as long as the vet allowed!), and she chest charged Miss Gambler her first night home after being spayed!!! I appreciate threads like these, books only tell so much, I hate that Barbara, Bobbie, and now Amanda have had to go through this, but by posting about it we all learn some very valuable info. Thanks.

[CorgiMum]

I am very lucky that Dylan is a 'quiet dog'.

[manymuddypaws]

thanks for all your words of support. I will keep you all posted.

[jcj528]

Amanda:

Please know that my thoughts and prayers will be with you and Sam on the 13th.

[ZdogZ]

Will continue sending healing vibes for Sam, especially on the 13th. Poor little guy. Sorry that it has taken so long for you to find out what was going on.

[mtoy]

Best wishes for a successful surgery and a quick healing for Sam! So sorry to hear about it, but very glad you finally got the right diagnosis.

[CorgiMum]

Amanda, I've been thinking about you and Sam, how is he doing? Is he co-operating with this restricted movement situation?

[Fluffypants]

~~~~~~~~~~Vibes for Sam & Amanda~~~~~~~~~~~~+WUBCLUB+

Hope all is ok.

[sutulu]

Amanda:

I'm sorry I missed this. I too am so sorry Sam has been in pain for so long. I hope this Ortho specialist can put his knee back together.

You work so hard with your dogs and take great care of them. Don't beat yourself up.

This should be a reminder to all of us to be vigilant and not embarassed or intimidated to insist on 2nd opinions. Who would have guessed that 2 Vets would miss the same thing.

This reminds me of Emilie and Gus. I do wonder how poor Gus is doing?

Susan

[manymuddypaws]

Thanks guys, Sam is doing okay, he has pretty much been on restricted exercise for the full 6 months so he doesn't really question even more crate time. He's being a very good boy. I talked to the vet yesterday and asked more questions about the surgery in general, and my friend April came over today to do some TTouch on him- he really liked it and fell asleep. I am feeling better about the surgery and now am just stressed about the fact that tomorrow will be a week until surgery.

-Amanda

[ZdogZ]

I'm glad that you are feeling better and I know its hard not to be stressed out. I'll keep sending good thoughts, vibes, and prayers for you and Sam.

[MrsGrace]

Wow, I too missed this!

Amanda, so sorry to hear about Sam. Hang in there and we're sending you vibes and prayers from the Colby Family!! +WUBCLUB+ Please keep us updated.

[CorgiMum]

Hope Sam is resting up well. {{{{{}}}}}

[corgiland]

Amanda......so sorry to hear about Sam and am sending prayers and lots of healing vibes for him....

"Corgiland"
Beverly

[disraeli ears]

Sorry I've missed this...I hope Sam is feeling better and that his leg heals as quickly as possible. Vibes for Sam~~~~~~~~~~~~~ +WUBCLUB+

[bunnybutts]

~~~~~~~~~~~:RADAR:~~~~~~~~~~~ Healing vibes for Sam

and ((((((Amanda))))))))) hugs for you!

[manymuddypaws]

Sam is doing well, his leg is really sore, so I think that the surgery is going to hapen none to soon! He spent the weekend at my parents while I was away at an Agility trial- so he got lots of rest and of course was very spoiled by my dad (who says that he doesn't like dogs but secretly really likes Sam) Three days until surgery!

on a side note, my friend sarah is a designer and made me a really cool logo to put on some stuff I made to sell. THe logo turned out great and I thought I would share, she totally captured the essence of Sam!

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z199/manymuddypaws/gimpydoglogo.jpg

Thanks for all your words of encouragment- it means a lot!

[ZdogZ]

That's a great logo! Poor Sam! I just feel so sorry for him.

[MissGambler's+Mojo'sMommy]

GREAT LOGO!!! It looks just like him, and I sent you a pm, hope it helps.

[corgiland]

Great Logo!! Vibes still going out for Sam.....

"Corgiland"
Beverly

[dcole]

Amanda,

So sorry I've been away for about a week and missed this! Lots and lots of healing vibes for Sam. Please let us know how his surgery goes! +WUBCLUB+

[MVons]

So sorry to hear about Sam, but good to hear there is surgery to cure. Glad also to hear if he needs to go to your parents, he'll have lots of rest there too.

[glencorgi]

Amanda,

Glad to see you posted to SC-L about Sam's cruciate. Should get some solid responses and suggestions.

Love the logo too. <VBG>

Debbie

[manymuddypaws]

I posted to pretty much all the lists I belong to, which is alot now!! I am really frustrated, more so now because I think that the surgery the vet here wants to do is the wrong one, so I cancelled it, and am trying to get a hold of a different specialist in a larger city a few hours from me, and no one is calling me back and I have no freakin' clue as to what I should do.

-Amanda who is very fed up

[MissGambler's+Mojo'sMommy]

You may be fed up, but I give you credit for looking into all avenues of repair, as well as for following your intuition. There would be nothing worse than to put Sam through something this severe only to discover that he needed something else. Good luck in your search, and we will send some peace of mind vibes to maybe help you.

[Jespah]

Amanda - LOVE the logo!!!

Have you considered a trip to Saskatoon to the vet college?? I know it's a days drive, but all things considered it may be your best option. You could also contact them and see if they would be willing to look at xrays and vet reports and give you an opinion from a distance first. That's what they do here at Guelph.

If you go to the folks that teach canine ortho surgery - then they will probably be able to give you the best diagnosis, treatment options and prognosis.

Keeping my fingers crossed for Sam!

Deb

[manymuddypaws]

Hey Deb,

I actually talked to someone from there today, and they recommended I go to a clinic in Calgary (which is much closer) So I have called them and now am waiting for a referral from a vet here. So hopefully the Dr. there will have some information for me. I will keep you all posted.


-Amanda

[ZdogZ]

Amanda ~ I hope you can get this figured out pretty soon. I know it has to be frustrating for you and for Sam. Sending lots of thoughts, prayers, and vibes to you.

[CorgiMum]

{{{{{{Sam & Amanda}}}}}}

What type of surgery was it that was first recommended? TPLO? Or the Trad?

Hope that you get some answers and are able to have them help your boy soon.

[manymuddypaws]

The vet I saw here recomended the trad- and after looking into it more I don't think that is the right surgery. I think that although the TPLO is more serious it is the only way Sam ever has a hope of returning to his active lifestyle. What kind did Dylan have again?

[CorgiMum]

Dylan had Trad, given his size/weight, it is what is recommended, and I was happy with that decision. I know how invasive the TPLO is, the possible complications etc.

You are seeking all options for Sam, good luck. And please keep us posted.

[manymuddypaws]

Tomorrow we leave bright and early to see yet another vet in a larger city. We are going to meet with a specialist who deals mainly with cruciates. I hope to get some information and an appointment for surgery! I am pretty nervous about it, when I made the initial appointment the receptionist said that usually they like to make the surgery appointment for the following day. Half of me says yes that would be awesome, and the other half is still dreading the thought. But I know that the sooner the better....I'll keep you all posted!

[Merlincorgi]

Continued thoughts for Sam and yourself. Hope the new vet is able to give you a good prognosis and that Sam is healing quickly!

[sutulu]

Amanda:

I am looking forward to hearing out how Sam did with this new Vet.

This must be very difficult for you. My thoughts and well wishes are with you and Sam.

Susan

[ZdogZ]

Keep us updated! Still sending lots of healing vibes for Sam.

[CorgiMum]

Good luck for the appt tomorrow. {{{{{{}}}}}}

[Jespah]

Amanda - go with your gut feelings - if you feel like they are the ones and they can get him in ASAP, then the sooner he can start healing.

I'm sending vibes to Calgary!!!

+WUBCLUB+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+WUBCLUB+

Deb

[corgiland]

Amanda.........continued prayers and vibes to Sam and yourself.....

"Corgiland"
Beverly

[MissGambler's+Mojo'sMommy]

You and Sam are in my thoughts, and we're sending lots of good answers and quick healing Mojo vibes your way.

[Fluffypants]

+WUBCLUB+ ~~~~ hoping for good news today ~~~~ +WUBCLUB+

[mtoy]

Thinking of Sam and sending healing thoughts!:SMILE:

[MrsGrace]

+WUBCLUB+~~~~~~~~~Healing vibes~~~~~~~~~~~~+WUBCLUB+

[manymuddypaws]

Yesterday was pretty horrible. I am feeling a little better today about it but overall I feel like crap and have no idea where to turn now. So the specialist(s) -two of them- both said that Sam does NOT have a cruciate, even while under anesthetic his knee was strong and stable. Instead he noticed during the initial exam that Sam was very sensitive on his lower spine- something that I have noticed for a long time and have told the other vets about. So after I told him about the hopping that sam has always done, and the roached back, the physio etc he decided that new xrays were in order. So they took Sam upstairs and did the xrays- I cam back an hour later to a very wobbly dog and to the news that my dog more than likely has a herniated disk in his lower spine- which is causing the apparent lameness in his leg. The vet wants me to get a CT Scan (for the tune of 3grand) followed by surgery(not included in the 3grand).....I have just begun to do research on this as I have no experience with this at all. I am going to be very careful before jumping into surgery as I want what is going to be best for my dog- sometimes I have learned that the vets see dollar signs instead of the dog...(as was the case of the vet who wanted to do cruciate surgery last thursday) I will keep you all posted.

A very frustrated Amanda

[Jespah]

Oh Amanda, how frustrating for you. It's unbelievable the costs of these things and trying to make the right decision on top of that.

Give yourself a couple of days to think and let it sink it - I'm sure you must be exhausted. I guess you could go back and post to the ortho site about the disk and see if anyone else has gone through this.

+WUBCLUB++WUBCLUB++WUBCLUB++WUBCLUB+

Deb

[Fluffypants]

I'm so sorry Amanda. Continue to trust yourself and do what you think is beast for Sam. Nobody else cares about him as much as you do. You're a good mom. I'm sending you some good luck and some healing vibes.
+WUBCLUB+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+WUBCLUB+
+WUBCLUB+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+WUBCLUB+

[CorgiMum]

{{{{{{{Sam & Amanda}}}}}}}

I'm so sorry that you and Sam are going through all of this confusion.

I know nothing about herniated disks, but amnow starting to read. So far I have been looking at this site.

http://www.westlakeanimalhospital.com/Encyclopedia/Acral_Lick/Addison_s_Disease/Adrenal_Gland_Disease__Ferrets/Anal_Sac_Disease__Canine/degenerative_disk_disease__can.html

[Jespah]

I am posting this as an FYI for everyone on herniated disks. It's from Dr. Dunning of the College of Vet Medicine at the U. of Chicago.

Amanda - one thing they suggest is that you use a chest harness rather than a collar and that you keep him from having sudden "snap" stops.


Classically, there are two types of disc herniation: "disc extrusion" occurs when the nucleus pulposus explodes into the spinal canal and "disc bulging" is when the nucleus pulposus protrudes into the spinal canal. This latter type is the type commonly suffered by people.

Some dog breeds, particularly "dwarf" breeds with long bodies and short legs (such as Basset hounds, dachshunds, and Pekingese), are prone to disc extrusion as they experience a condition know as chondroid metaplasia, where the discs begin to deteriorate and calcify as early as one year of age. Large breed dogs (such as Labradors, German shepherds, and Doberman Pinschers) are more prone to disc protrusion, similar to what is seen in people.

The clinical signs stemming from the disc herniation depend upon the location of the injury; a disc injury in the lower back can cause problems only in the hind limbs, whereas an injury in the neck can cause dysfunction in all limbs. Dr. Dunning explains that with spinal injuries, neurological function is lost in a specific order, and the chance for recovery is greatly influenced by seeking prompt medical attention.

In the first stage an animal loses proprioception, or its ability to know where its limbs are. When this happens, an animal will display a "drunken" walk, known as ataxia. If the problem worsens, the animal will lose its ability to move its legs. In the last stage of paralysis an animal loses its ability to feel it legs. Paralysis can be progressive, going from bad to worse, so an animal displaying any of these signs should be seen by a veterinarian immediately.

The treatment for disc herniation depends on the degree and duration of neurological dysfunction. For mild disc injuries with no loss of strength or voluntary movement, a veterinarian will prescribe rest and limited activity, just as a human doctor advises against heavy lifting or other activity that may stress the spine.

For animals that have not responded to conservative management or who have had multiple relapses of clinical signs of disc disease or have paresis or weakness of the limbs, surgery is a likely recommendation. Before surgery, diagnostic imaging such as an MRI, myelogram, or CT scan will be performed to confirm the cause and location of problem.

Decompression surgery can relieve pressure on the spinal cord caused by disc debris. The veterinarian creates a hemilaminectomy, similar to a surgical "sunroof," out of the bone overlying the spinal cord and removes the problematic disc material, relieving pressure on the spinal cord. Over 90 percent of dogs improve with this surgery, if medical attention is prompt and the degree of neurological impairment is not too severe. Both extrusion and bulge herniations can be treated with decompression surgery.

In lieu of or in addition to surgery, rehabilitation (known as physical therapy in human medicine) can be an essential part of spinal injury treatment. Rehabilitation can involve underwater treadmills and exercises designed to strengthen muscles and neurological function. The University of Illinois Veterinary Teaching Hospital is among the first institutions to implement veterinary rehabilitation.

Unfortunately, disc herniation is an injury that can happen repeatedly, in different vertebrae, especially in breeds that are predisposed. The most common sites for disc herniation are the lower back and neck areas, where the immobile rib cage joins areas of high movement, causing stress on those vertebrae.

Owners of dwarf-breed dogs or other dogs that are predisposed can minimize risk of disc injuries or avoid repeated episodes by keeping their dogs weight down. Excess body weight adds biomechanical load and stress on the discs.

"Most importantly," Dr. Dunning emphasizes, "owners should not feel guilty. Disc injuries are never really anyone's fault but rather a function of how the animal is built."

[CorgiMum]

Amanda, have you considered joining Bobbie's Yahoo Group? There may be people there that can help you with more information, they have helped me so much, and have been so very kind.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/wheelcorgis/

[ZdogZ]

Oh, Amanda! My thoughts and with you and Sam! I am sending lots of healing vibes for Sam and some calming vibes for you!
+WUBCLUB++WUBCLUB++WUBCLUB++WUBCLUB+

[manymuddypaws]

Today we met with a Physio Therapist and instantly she told me that if this was her dog she would not do surgery. I in turn was instantly releived. I had already decided that I was NOT going to do surgery and was feeling badly about it. I was at the fitness center today for two hours with Sam today. Margaret (the therapist) was great and Sam seemed to enjoy himself (weird, I know) So she popped his pelvis and back into place, did some lazer therapy and then showed me three different tension exercises I have to do every day. We also worked on a big foam mattress, and attempted to make him use his right foot more. So I have loads of stuff to work on at home. Here are three pictures that they took so I can refer back to them if I am not sure where my hands need to be.
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z199/manymuddypaws/SamLabadie006.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z199/manymuddypaws/SamLabadie005.jpg

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z199/manymuddypaws/SamLabadie004.jpg

So I go back in two weeks to see her again, and hopefully we just keep progressing from there. She is quite optimistic about it and doesn't beleive that he will be paralysed at all. There is no neurological damage so far so she is confident that it has been caught in time and can be healed- without surgery.

-Amanda
who is feeling MUCH better

[ZdogZ]

That sounds great, Amanda! Keep us posted. I will continue sending good vibes for you and Sam.

[MVons]

How wonderful, great news, Sam enjoyed it makes it easier for you to do at home. I'm ignorant on this, is physio therapy similar to human chiropractor?

[corgiland]

Oh Amanda........this sounds like much better news for Sam!......It is good that you have the pictures to refer to when you work with him at home....continued vibes and good wishes for you and Sam. Thanks for the update.

[MissGambler's+Mojo'sMommy]

Great news, and it is very smart to have taken those photos.

[Jespah]

Hooray!!! I really hope that this is just the thing to make Sam his old self!! From what we know of you and your dedication to your dogs, I'm sure that Sam has the best chance he can.

Thanks for updating us - what happened to Sam's Gimpy gear? I want a T-Shirt please. Feel free to post the link at CafePress in our FRAPPER's Flea Market.

Deb

[manymuddypaws]

Thanks for the good thoughts. At this particular place they therapists do both physical therapy and chiropractic work. It is very similar to what people have done...Sam's exercises are mostly tension exercises in the hopes to make his "ouchy" spots minimal. Also we are doing lots of balance exercises so that Sam uses his right leg more. We measured his thigh and there is THREE inches difference between his left and right! He has not been using his right leg pretty much at all and that is the result.


I will post the link in the market.... I got mine the other day and love it!

[Fluffypants]

That's wonderful news Amanda. I'm sure you are so relieved!!! With your dedication and love, I am confident that Sam will improve!+WUBCLUB+

[taflar]

Today we met with a Physio Therapist and instantly she told me that if this was her dog she would not do surgery. I in turn was instantly releived. I had already decided that I was NOT going to do surgery and was feeling badly about it.

Something else to consider is accupuncture, and possibly homeopathic treatment.

Did the vets do anything for your dog? When I've had one with a ruptured disk the dog was immediately put on prednisone and crate rest. For Mikey that worked and was all he needed. For others some times they need more.

My whippet had a compression injury in his neck and accupuncture and homeopathy helped him greatly.

There are things you can do besides surgery (as you've found out at the physical therapist.)

Peggy

[jakobandbrandonsmom]

Poor little guy having to go through all of that! It sounds like the therapist can do wonderful things for him though.

[sutulu]

Amanda:

I am so glad to hear the physiotherapist is so optomisitc. Sam doesn't look too stressed in the photos.

Give Sam a gentle but big hug for me!

Susan

[manymuddypaws]

Sam's a tough little guy, and through all this he has been really great- still happy and wanting to play.

[Kassie]

Great news! Our female mixed breed who died this summer had a similar problem. When it first happened we had to crate her 24/7 for 3 weeks and she got much better. for the next 8 years when she had a flare up we would return to that (on shorter term) and she was on anti inflamitory meds off and on. We built a ramp to roll her crate out to the yard to let her out. With good monitoring we had very few big problem periods and she had a really good life right down to being Maeves playmate when she was 16 and Maeve came to us at 7 months! Best of luck!

BTW, must have a gimpy dog T next pay period. (WE paid for Aine this time!:EEK:) Especially as I am a gimpy person!:WINK:

[CorgiMum]

Sending out lots of continued mending vibes for {{{{{{Sam}}}}}}.