Sexual Maturity - when?

[mtoy]

The new vet we saw was wonderful, I really liked her. She did have some strong opinions on spaying/neutering age. She thinks Link should be done now (6 months). His breeder said by 1 yr. I have heard earlier neutering could affect growth - everyone is probably sick of the debate so I don't really want to go there. Anyway, she brought up some good points, like marking. I don't want him to even dream of marking anything indoors. He's really good potty-wise, but hormones can pull a fast one and ruin that. When do male Cardis start marking? Another thing she mentioned is <giggle> the scrotum. If we wait longer it will be used to hanging and will always be there. Neutering now will give it a chance to be "absorbed" by the growing body. This is so funny since we just this week discovered he grew one - like overnight it appeared.

Anyway, any tips? This vet is supposed to be a reproductive specialist (we're NOT going there because of that, she sees normal pets too) so her opinion should hold some value. Decisions, decisions....

[sutulu]

I didn't notice it at home but my puppy sitter told me at around 5 months that Tucker was getting into trouble with the other dogs because he was constantly trying to hump them. I had fully intended to neuter him at 6 months as my Vet advised during his "well puppy" visit.

Do you notice this behavior with Link?

I know she has urged other clients to have their dogs neutered when their behavior started to be problematic at Day Care. One family put it off and put it off and finally admitted they just didn't want to "mutilate" their poor dog. She booted him from Day Care and would only do dog walks for them.

Susan

[LaRositaMonita]

We're doing Mac at six months since it's what our vet recommends, too...Mac's cousin had his "tutoring" then and is doing just great, it seems to be the most universal age everyone recommends...

[jcj528]

When Zack was a puppy five years ago, my vet kept track of his growth and development and then advised me when it was time for the surgery. As it turned out, Zack was neutered riight after he turned eleven months. He does have a small residual scrotum, but unless he's lying on his back, you'd never notice it.

By waiting as long as we did, Zack took on the male characteristics I wanted. The first one is dumb, I know, but I wanted him to lift his leg not squat( dumb, huh?) and I wanted a broad chest and a wide forehead. All of which I got without any real danger of testicular cancer developing in between his fifth and eleventh month. As he is not a dog prone to mount anything, anyone or most importantly any-dog, that issue was not siginificant in the decision the vet and I made.

I guess the take home lesson of his is that you and your vet need to make this decision together. Let her know if there are any features and/or characteristics that are influenced by testosterone that you are concerned about and discuss all the pros and cons. You and she will make the decision that is right for Link.

[taflar]

The new vet we saw was wonderful, I really liked her. She did have some strong opinions on spaying/neutering age. She thinks Link should be done now (6 months). His breeder said by 1 yr. I have heard earlier neutering could affect growth - everyone is probably sick of the debate so I don't really want to go there. Anyway, she brought up some good points, like marking. I don't want him to even dream of marking anything indoors. He's really good potty-wise, but hormones can pull a fast one and ruin that. When do male Cardis start marking? Another thing she mentioned is <giggle> the scrotum. If we wait longer it will be used to hanging and will always be there. Neutering now will give it a chance to be "absorbed" by the growing body. This is so funny since we just this week discovered he grew one - like overnight it appeared.

When I place a puppy I require that they be neutered by or at 6 mos. of age.

I have one I had done at 5 mos. before I let him go to his new home. (He had a birth defect in on foot and I wanted to make sure that he would not need any special care in his recovery due to being a three legged dog.)

He has not had any problems with growth or looking like a male dog.

I personally think that 6 mos. is fine. And it does help with marking, etc.

As for the scrotum, well, I've had adult dogs neutered, even older dogs. There has not been a hanging scrotum yet.

Peggy

[manymuddypaws]

this is a tough debate. Sam was neutered LONG before I got him- he was done at 4 months old- he is a pipsqueak, is weedy and narrow (perfect for agility)

Vito is almost 8 months old and I haven't neutered him yet. Although after doing more research and talking to more people I beleive that I was backwards in my thinking.

I figured that I wanted Vito to grow more...when you neuter you take away hormones that encourage growth etc. So I haven't neutered him. Like I said, now I think I was wrong. I have talked to numerous people and the dog is more likely to grow TALLER when they are neutered young, as the growth plates take longer to close without the added hormones. I don't think any of this has been "proven" but this is what I have gathered through some research. I have booked Vito's appointment for the end of August...

[MVons]

I had contacted Pepper's dad's breeder who has bred cardigans since the early 70's on this subject. She said we are not talking about an oversexed breed. She said the dog she sold to Hollywood that was neutered at 4 months remained feminine with no chest development and had longer legs. She knows I really liked Harry Potter (4th place at Westminister) and I asked about his chest only clearing an inch from the ground. She said he is 7 and has middle age spread! She recommended I wait until 10 months to neuter. My breeder has that we neuter by 12 months. So maybe cardigan chests are slower to develop than pembrokes.

An alpaca breeder I discussed neutering dogs at 4 months CA bill they were trying to pass and she said alpaca's that are neutered too early have longer legs.

Regarding the scrotum hanging, well if we had that problem and it bothered us, we'd buy the synthetic balls! My husband heard the company owner speak on the program regarding the CA bill. I had no idea why they made them until your post! I thought they would be for someone still trying to show their dog. Silly me.

Personally, I would tell the Vet you are waiting until 8 or 10 months and see her reaction. I like a Vet who will consider your opinion and don't take the God role as a Vet cannot know every breed like a breeder can.

My past landlord raised shelties (before they became toy size) in the early 80's and her stud male never marked in the house except when the cat had marked when it was sick. My neighbor's 2 year old un-neutered golden retriever has never had housebreaking problems or marking. If marking was a general problem, more people would neuter!

[glencorgi]

There are some pretty in depth research papers and studies out that show increased risks with early spay/neuters including lack of soundness due to the lack of hormones related to growth plate closure (a particular concern to performance enthusiasts), increased risks to certain kinds of cancers, incontinence issues in females ... .

Having said that, I've fully mature adults in as fosters that I've had to speuter and even intact they would look some of the physical descriptions used to describe early the growth development of pediatric spay neuters. The genetics just aren't there.

To the untrained eye (and even to some trained eyes) distinguishing between corgis, at least, adults that were speutered in a pediactric time frame and others that were speutered between 6 months and a year, doubtful many could do it. I know of a couple of Breeders who do pediactric speuters and when their adult puppies showed up at breed gatherings, long time breeders and exhibitors couldn't tell which was which. I don't see much difference in the maturity rate of chests dropping and filling out between Cardigans and Pembrokes either; that seems more to depend upon the lines rate of maturing, not breed differences.

Having neutered a fair number of adult males, the scrotum hanging is not something I've particularly noticed as being a big issue. At least with my vet, there aren't any empty sacs hanging down, rather it's fairly smooth under there.

Marking can begin showing up at any time now that he's six months. It doesn't ever have to be a problem as long as you keep housetraining consistent, solid and enforced. We've had intact males used at stud in the house with no marking issues at all - it just wasn't allowed.

For Link, I'd consult with his breeder and relate what your vet has advised. Then I would make my decision based on input from both your vet and his breeder.

Debbie

[Sizzledog]

On the marking issue... my Doberman is three years old, intact, and has never marked in the house. I think it's more of a training issue.

As far as the scrotum is concerned, at the time of neuter, the vet can remove the scrotum. Also, the scrotum will eventually be reabsorbed to a certian degree. It sounds like your vet is stretching the facts to convince you to neuter at 6 months.

I would talk to your breeder, find out why she wants you to wait (my breeder wants her dobe puppy boys to wait until a year as well) and relay the information to your vet. She can't force you to neuter him at 6 months, so you're still the final decision maker in the matter.

[mtoy]

Lots of good info here - thanks everyone! I'm definitely going to ask our breeder. As for the vet, unless there is a problem between now and when I decide to neuter him, I won't even see her until then. The decision is mine. If she's afraid I could become a back-yard-breeder, well, it's just not going to happen.

So far Link acts like a puppy - no marking, no raising his leg, no humping. If he even tried to hint at humping Millie I think she'd have his head (and she's neutered).

I'm not worried about the hanging down scrotum, if it were to happen, I just thought it was funny she said that. Implants? LOL, maybe after I get breast implants (and that would be after I become a BY breeder!!!!! Sheesh, what next?

My main concern is growth, and the classic cardigan build. I just LOVE that.

In other repects the vet was terrific. Our old vet insisted that Link needed another round of puppy shot boosters. Otherwise I would be "putting my dog at risk". This one looked at his record and agreed that he only needed his rabies, nothing else would be needed until next year. That's why I chose this clinic.

[taflar]

this is a tough debate. Sam was neutered LONG before I got him- he was done at 4 months old- he is a pipsqueak, is weedy and narrow (perfect for agility)

Vito is almost 8 months old and I haven't neutered him yet. Although after doing more research and talking to more people I beleive that I was backwards in my thinking.

I figured that I wanted Vito to grow more...when you neuter you take away hormones that encourage growth etc. So I haven't neutered him. Like I said, now I think I was wrong. I have talked to numerous people and the dog is more likely to grow TALLER when they are neutered young, as the growth plates take longer to close without the added hormones. I don't think any of this has been "proven" but this is what I have gathered through some research. I have booked Vito's appointment for the end of August...

Chances are that when they were neutered won't change the appearance that much. It's mostly genetics. If they get taller/leggier it's maybe a half inch if that much. My experience is similar to Debbie's people can't tell which is which by sight.

IMO, I don't think it matters all that much. I still recommend around the 6 mos. age.

Not that I'd condem any one who wanted to wait a bit longer as long as they were responsible and didn't have a problem with the dog.

Peggy

[taflar]

So maybe cardigan chests are slower to develop than pembrokes.

Many, IMO, most corgis of both breeds don't fully mature till they're 3 or 4 years old. So the chest isn't going to be fully developed when you neuter the dog anyway. IMO, the hormones don't make that much difference.

Regarding the scrotum hanging, well if we had that problem and it bothered us, we'd buy the synthetic balls! My husband heard the company owner speak on the program regarding the CA bill. I had no idea why they made them until your post! I thought they would be for someone still trying to show their dog. Silly me.

You can be suspened from showing at all if you were found to have an implant in your dog. So no they don't use them for show dogs.

I know of someone who has had one put in his dog and well, they do NOT feel normal, they are hard. And the body can reject them. And it costs around $1,000 to have one implanted. I could think of lots of other things to do with that much money.

Personally, I would tell the Vet you are waiting until 8 or 10 months and see her reaction. I like a Vet who will consider your opinion and don't take the God role as a Vet cannot know every breed like a breeder can.

I agree that vets can't know every breed, and that they should work with the owners.

My past landlord raised shelties (before they became toy size)

Sorry for the break in the quote there, but I have to disagree. Shelties are not "toy sized". The size limit is 13"-16" and has been for quite some time.

My "Sheltie Talk" book that was published in 1976 has the standard in it and it says the same. So it was the same in 1980. Not sure what he thinks is "toy sized". 13" shelties especailly males don't do well in the show ring. (Meaning hard to win with them.)

in the early 80's and her stud male never marked in the house except when the cat had marked when it was sick. My neighbor's 2 year old un-neutered golden retriever has never had housebreaking problems or marking. If marking was a general problem, more people would neuter!

I do agree that it's more of a training issue with marking though. Although intact dogs will be more likely forget their manners than a neutered male, if there is an in season female somewhere around.

Peggy

[manymuddypaws]

Chances are that when they were neutered won't change the appearance that much. It's mostly genetics. If they get taller/leggier it's maybe a half inch if that much. My experience is similar to Debbie's people can't tell which is which by sight.

IMO, I don't think it matters all that much. I still recommend around the 6 mos. age.

Not that I'd condem any one who wanted to wait a bit longer as long as they were responsible and didn't have a problem with the dog.

Peggy

I don't know Peggy, I had a talk with my breeder about this when i first got Sam (he is the result of her stud) and she is the one who told me that he is so small due to being neutered young. His littermate (that she kept) and also a male is normal cardi size.

but it doesn't matter much anyways when it comes down to it- it is all personal preference. All my rescues pups are neutered at 6 months, but myself I will always wait a bit longer from now on.

[taflar]

I don't know Peggy, I had a talk with my breeder about this when i first got Sam (he is the result of her stud) and she is the one who told me that he is so small due to being neutered young. His littermate (that she kept) and also a male is normal cardi size.

I've had one done at 4 mos. and one at 5 mos. and both were normal sized dogs. No differences I could see. Just my experience.

but it doesn't matter much anyways when it comes down to it- it is all personal preference. All my rescues pups are neutered at 6 months, but myself I will always wait a bit longer from now on.

Well, sometimes we don't get to choose. My Solo was 10 inches at the shoulder, and 18 lbs at maturity. She was small and I wish she had been bigger so she'd have done better in the show ring. But when you boil it down I would not have loved her any differently had she been bigger and gotten a title. So IMO, it really doesn't make much difference at what age you spay or neuter them. (And Solo was not spayed till she was fully mature and I decided to stop showing her.)

What I'm saying is if it's a pet and you're not going to show them then go ahead and spay or neuter when it's the best time for you. So if you want to wait till 8 mos. and the vet says 6, I can't see waiting would hurt. Then again, remember with the girls they can come in any time around or after 6 mos.

Peggy

[MVons]

In other respects the vet was terrific. Our old vet insisted that Link needed another round of puppy shot boosters. Otherwise I would be "putting my dog at risk". This one looked at his record and agreed that he only needed his rabies, nothing else would be needed until next year. That's why I chose this clinic.THANK YOU. You never know how what you post can help someone. This quote made me realize I don't have to follow the Vet's advice on two more parvo shots because their community has a big problem when my community doesn't. I'm going to research the additional parvo and right now I think it is a bigger risk taking him down to parvo central to get the shots. Chester had his four combination shots. My Vet did do a worm stool test instead of just treating for the worms. He is just over cautious on the parvo because of a litter dying at 17 weeks last year. But I think he forgot I don't live there. I was just blindly following his schedule and not thinking until I read your comment on your old vet.

[mtoy]

THANK YOU. You never know how what you post can help someone. This quote made me realize I don't have to follow the Vet's advice on two more parvo shots because their community has a big problem when my community doesn't. I'm going to research the additional parvo and right now I think it is a bigger risk taking him down to parvo central to get the shots. Chester had his four combination shots. My Vet did do a worm stool test instead of just treating for the worms. He is just over cautious on the parvo because of a litter dying at 17 weeks last year. But I think he forgot I don't live there. I was just blindly following his schedule and not thinking until I read your comment on your old vet.

I think location has a lot to do with risks. Heartworm, parvo, etc. I know I live in a low risk area for many things because we simply don't have stray dogs here in my community. In 16 years the only wandering dogs (I've seen) have been local pets who got loose that were wearing tags. I called the owners and they happily came to get them. But we must also consider where we bring our dogs, and other dogs who are brought to those areas. Here (http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/MinimalVaccineUse.html) is the vaccine protocol I'm following. It may or may not be right for other dogs (or even mine, lol), but it's in my comfort zone.

[mtoy]

Ah, we have a new development. Today we were sitting in the backyard, the dogs enjoying the afternoon when Link decided to roll in something. He was in his glory on his back when his, um, manliness came out of hiding. I never had a male dog before, don't know what to call it. He really is growing up, I didn't realize it happened this fast! Just like kids, I guess.

[MissGambler's+Mojo'sMommy]

Am I ever so glad that I have females :TWITCHY: !!!

[J.P.'s human]

I have been addressing the neutering issue myself, with input from the breeder, the vet, and the obedience trainer - all of whom have a different slant! How's a girl to know? When all the "experts" [ a word which, by the way, means an unknown quantity('x') under pressure(spurt)] differ, I have just finally made my own decision. Between the end of our vacation and the beginning of football season, J.P. gets "tutored". He will be slightly over 7 months old, and I will have time to deal with extra babying! I finally decided that I want to make me and my dog happy - and ain't no way my dog is gonna be happy with this one - so that just leaves me - a nice, round number to work with! Hope it's the right decision - that's all I can do!

[MissGambler's+Mojo'sMommy]

My Corgi was spayed at seven months, but we were pushing it, the vet said that she was ready to go into heat for the 1st time, and he didn't want that. Are you trying to spay before the 1st heat? I have read that there a health benefits to doing so. My Mini Dach was spayed in April, at six months, and we were pushing it with her also, our vet told us that smaller breeds tend to sexually mature at an earlier age, but he wanted to wait till he felt it was safe to operate. So I lucked out with my two, never had to go through "those times" with them. Thank God for "tutoring".

[taflar]

Between the end of our vacation and the beginning of football season, J.P. gets "tutored". He will be slightly over 7 months old, and I will have time to deal with extra babying!

Chances are he won't need any extra babying. Neutering is not usually a major surgery and they recover VERY quickly. With dogs that are still puppies (under one year of age) it's usually harder to keep them somewhat calm for a few days than it is to get them to recover.

I'll bet he does just fine! :)

Peggy

[mtoy]

Well I just called and made the appointment for Link's neutering. I was going to wait until closer to a year, but he's been getting kind of wild lately. It's probably just because the kids have gone back to school and I've been working on a big project so he doesn't get so much attention any more, but heck I have to get it done sometime. Plus, his "man juice" is there sometimes and is just icky. Anyway, the appointment is Sept. 21.

[MVons]

Ignorance here again, does the man juice go away with neuter?